Teri Foy [00:00]: I remember the first time somebody described what a CAR T cell was to me, and I was like, wow, that's really cool, but it doesn't sound very feasible. It takes a long time, a lot of collaboration, a lot of different unique skill sets and insights to take it from a concept, to go back into a patient's body and kill tumor cells.
Mike Burgess [00:28]: The initial idea of CAR T cell therapy really emerged in the 1980s. People were working largely on vaccine approaches.
T. Foy [00:36]: It was elegant science and it was complex, but it didn't work very well.
M. Burgess [00:40]: One of the most exciting breakthroughs in the last 20 years in cancer immunotherapy was the first patient treated with CD19 CAR T. This was a patient, a six year old girl who had advanced acute lymphoblastic leukemia, had failed available treatments and enrolled in a Phase 1 clinical trial. And that patient actually had a complete response and is still alive today. This is a watershed moment in the field. You know that you're really on to something and that this could transform the lives of not just this patient, but many other patients.
T. Foy [01:16]: CAR T cell therapies work by pulling out a patient's own immune cells in a process called apheresis. We then purify out these very important killer cells called T cells. And then those cells, they go through an engineering process. And that works by designing a gene which has the receptor that's going to recognize the tumor cells as well as the intracellular signaling components that a T cell has and putting that string of genes into the T cells. A virus can deliver that cargo into the T cell, so every T cell then that's activated and grown from those original T cells contains that chimeric antigen receptor now that's engineered to recognize tumor cells.
T. Foy [01:59]: Normally your T cells are guided to recognize a variety of foreign things. So the idea that you could take all your T cells that might be specific for different things and make them specific for one thing, and that's the tumor, and grow them up into large quantities and put them back in the patient and have them do what they're intended to do, which is kill infected cells, was pretty genius.
T. Foy [02:24]: A big challenge was you put all these T cells in a patient, they're highly active, they find their tumor, they get all jazzed up and they kill the tumor, but a consequence of that is that they liberate a lot of inflammatory cytokines, which cause some toxicity in the patients and in the very early days, that was a very high risk for those patients. And so the field had to quickly figure out how to manage that inflammation or that toxicity to balance the risk/benefit of cell therapies.
M. Burgess [02:59]: Having worked as a physician scientist in early clinical development for some time at Bristol Myers Squibb, we worked with a lot of different modalities, small molecules, biologics. What's most exciting is that, you know, you can see activity in some of these trials that you don't see with these other approaches very early in the study.
T. Foy [3:22]: Getting the first clinical data where we could see cells expanding, CAR T cells expanding, and patients’ tumors going away.
M. Burgess [03:29]: The question always becomes in a clinical trial, what's driving that response? What allows for a more durable response? And then scientifically, can we collect information from the trial that will allow us to sort of predict for efficacy in patients and also toxicity?
M. Burgess [03:47]: The translational medicine approach we've taken with CAR T cell therapy at BMS has been incredibly comprehensive and fundamental to our cell therapy programs from the very beginning. And as we collect that information and treat more patients, we can actually build a data set that allows us to ask the question, you know, what is the optimal CAR T cell therapy for a patient? And we can take that and go back to the laboratory and work on re-engineering the cells, work on our manufacturing platforms, and work on other approaches to now deliver what we think is going to be the best cell therapy we can make.
T. Foy [04:27]: Bristol Myers Squibb had sort of paved that way with checkpoint inhibitor drugs, so there's real strong expertise there and understanding T cell biology in the context of treating tumors. And we continued that investment and built a really expansive cell therapy organization within Bristol Myers Squibb. And it's amazing that we have so many resources dedicated to this modality.
M. Burgess [04:53]: Cell therapy is incredibly exciting to work on because it really is a team sport that requires careful coordination. We have incredible expertise in this area. We're the only company that has two products approved in two different diseases. And then we have an incredible pipeline.
T. Foy [05:13]: One of the really amazing things that's happened in the last year is we've taken the same CD19 CAR T cell that's used to treat B cell malignancies and we're treating patients that have autoimmune diseases that are caused by B cells, B cells making antibodies that attack tissues, diseases like lupus nephritis. So we have a wealth of opportunity ahead of us to think about solid tumors, autoimmune disease, making these therapies off the shelf from healthy donors as opposed to from patients, a variety of different ways that we can expand the learnings today to bring these drugs to more patients.
M. Burgess [05:52]: For me, I love CAR T cell therapy because it's the perfect interface of science and medicine. There are a lot of jobs where I think you go to work every day and you work really hard and you're not really sure, you know, what's the final outcome. It's a very measurable outcome. When I look at a clinical trial and I say, I worked on this trial and there's still patients in a complete response. It's an incredibly gratifying and fulfilling feeling.
T. Foy [06:19]: When I look back ten years ago when we first started in this space, the science sounded really cool. It also sounded really hard. And to be where we are today, where the field has shown not only is it feasible, but it's working tremendously well for patients. It's amazing, it's rewarding, it's very satisfying when we have a patient come through and talk about how they were planning to miss their daughter's wedding because they didn't think they were going to live that long to then getting the therapy. Yeah, it's amazing.